19-3-45 Morning

A visitor from Sind, very probably Kundanlal A. Mahatani of Hyderabad, Sind, (now Pakistan) asked: "It is said the world and the objects that we see are all unreal, like the snake in the rope. It is also stated in other places that the seer and the seen are the same. If the seer and the seen are same, then how can we say that the seen is unreal?"

B.: All that is meant is that the seen regarded as an
independent entity, independent of the Self, is unreal. The seen is not different from the seer. What exists is the one Self, not a seer and a seen. The seen regarded as the Self is real.

V.: It is said the world is like a dream. But there is this
difference between dream and the waking state. In dream I see my friends or relations and go through some experiences with them. When I wake up and ask those friends or relations whom I met in the dream about the dream, they know nothing about it. But in the waking state what I see and hear is corroborated by so many others.

B.: You should not mix up the dream and the waking
states. Just as you seek corroboration about the waking state experiences from those whom you see in the waking state, you must ask for corroboration about the dream experiences from those whom you saw in the dream state, i.e., when you were in the dream. Then in the dream, those friends or relations whom you saw in the dream would corroborate you.

The main point is, are you prepared when awake to affirm
the reality of any of your dream experiences? Similarly, one who has awakened into jnana ^[?] cannot affirm the reality of the waking experience. From his viewpoint, the waking state is dream.

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V.: It is said only some are chosen for Self-realisation
and those alone could get it. It is rather discouraging.

B.: All that is meant is, we cannot by our own buddhi,
unaided by God's grace, achieve realisation of Self.

I added, "Bhagavan also says that even that grace does
not come arbitrarily, but because one deserves it by one's own efforts either in this or in previous lives."

V.: Human effort is declared to be useless. What incentive
can any man then have to better himself?

I asked, "Where is it said you should make no effort or
that your effort is useless?"

The visitor thereupon showed the portion in Who am I??

where it is said, "When there is one great Force looking after all the world, why should we bother what we shall do?" I pointed out that what is deprecated there is not human effort, but the feeling that "I am the doer". Bhagavan approved of my explanation, when I asked him if it was not so.

Afternoon

Bhagavan said he once had a dream that he went to Palni and that he then devoured the Palni God (Lord Subramanya); and that he had at another time a dream that he visited Tiruchendur temple (where also the deity is Lord Subramanya). The details of this dream Bhagavan does not remember.

I remembered that some people once wanted to know if a jivanmukta ^[?] can have dreams. The doubt is natural, because we believe jnanis have no sleep like ordinary men. So they may not have dreams. I therefore asked Bhagavan about this matter, and he said, "If the jnani can have a waking state, what is the difficulty about his having a dream state? But of course as his waking state is different from the ordinary man's waking state, so his dream state also will be different from the ordinary man's dream state. Whether in waking or in dream he will not slip from his real state which is sometimes called the fourth or turiya ^[?] state."

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