CONVERSATIONS WITH
BHAGAVAN
Swami Madhava Thirtha
I
These conversations were originally printed in the
author's Gujarati book, Ramana Maharshi ? Introduction and Teaching.
SWAMI Madhava Thirtha: It is said by some that God has
created various kinds of worlds and is still going to create a
new world.
Sri Bhagavan: Our present world itself is not true. Each
one sees a different imaginary world according to his imagination, and so where is the guarantee that the new world will be real? The jiva [?] (individual soul), the world and God, all of these are dependent on the True State. As long as there is the individual sense of `I', these are also there. From this individual sense of `I', from the mind, these three have arisen. If you destroy the mind, the three will not remain, but Brahman [?] alone will remain, as it remains and abides even now.
We see something incorrectly. This misperception will be
rectified by enquiring into the real nature of this jiva [?]. Even if the jiva [?] enters super-mind, it will remain in mind; but after surrendering the mind, there will be nothing remaining but Brahman [?]. Whether this world is real or unreal, chetana or jada,
Page 140
(conscious or inert), a place of happiness or a place of misery, all these states arise in the state of ignorance. They are not useful after Realisation. The state of Atma Nishta (being fixed in the Self ), devoid of the individual feeling of `I', is the Supreme State. In this state, there is no room for objective thinking, nor for this feeling of individual being. There is no doubt of any kind in this natural state of Being-Consciousness-Bliss. So long as there is the perception of name and form in oneself, God will appear with form, but when the vision of the formless Reality (arupa drishti) is achieved there will be no modifications of seer, seeing and seen. That vision is the nature of consciousness itself, non-dual and undivided. It is limitless, infinite and perfect. When the individual sense of `I' arises in the body, then the waking state appears. If this sense is absent, who then will see the world?
Q: It is believed by some that just as we can subdue the
material nature residing in our body, the sage, in the same way, must have such power in himself that he can change other's material nature, because the Self is common to all.
A: The jnani [?] does not believe that there are others, and so
there is no question of changing anyone's material nature. When others are seen, that is ignorance.
Q: Though Janaka was a jnani [?], he was a ruling monarch,
but his Guru, Yajnavalkya, who was also a jnani [?] renounced the world and went to the forest. Why was this so?
A: All happens according to the prarabdha (destiny) of
each jnani [?]. Krishna was an enjoyer of pleasures (bhogi), whereas Sukadeva was an ascetic (tyagi). Janaka and Rama were kings, but all of them were jnanis. Their inner experience was the same, and their external life was in accordance with their prarabdha.
Q: Some see a serpent in the rope, some a stick, some a
garland, and some a flow of water, but the one who sees the
Page 141
rope as the rope has the true knowledge. The knowledge of the other seers is not true.
A: It is not necessary to think of the view of other seers.
Those others are only in your imagination. Know the one seer, and all will be well.
Q: How?
A: In a dream, many are seen, but they are all in the
imagination of the one seer. When you wake up from the dream, the dream and those seen in the dream will take care of their own prarabdha.
Q: Then there will be no others?
A: It is the same with the world. In Aparokshanubhuti, (an
Advaitic work attributed to Sankara), the author says: "In the state where there is no existence of seer, seeing and seen, the sight should be fixed there (in that state) and not on the tip of the nose."
Q: A question arises from this: How can daily life go on if
the sight is fixed in this way?
A: Jnanis fix their sight in the substratum (adhishtana) even
during vyavahara (wordly activities), because nothing else becomes the truth except adhishtana. To feel that there is earth in the pot is the proper attitude (i.e., see the essence and not the form).
Q: A pot can be filled with water, but one cannot achieve
the same result by pouring water on earth.
A: I do not tell you to see earth after breaking the pot.
Even when the pot is whole, you can see it in the form of earth. In the same way, the world can be seen as the form of Brahman [?]. To have the knowledge of Brahman [?] in the waking state is similar to having the knowledge of clay in the pot.
Q: Are the name and form real?
A: You won't find them separate from adhishtana (the
substratum). When you try to get at name and form, you will
Page 142
find Reality only. Therefore attain the knowledge of that which is real for all time.
Q: Is it a fact that dreams arise because of the impressions
received during the waking state?
A: No, it is not true. In your dream you see many new
things and many new people whom you have never seen before in your waking state. You may even see a second dream within the dream. After waking up from the second dream, you feel that you have woken up, but that is the waking state of the first dream. In the same way, man wakes up daily, but it is not to a real waking state.
Q: Why does the waking state look so real?
A: We see so much on the cinema screen, but it is not real;
nothing is real there except the screen. In the same way, in the waking state, there is nothing but adhishtana. Jagrat-prama (knowledge of the world) is the prama of jagrat-pramata. (Knowledge of the knower of the world). Both go away in sleep.
Q: Why do we see such permanency and constancy in the
world?
A: It is seen on account of wrong ideas. When someone
says that he took a bath in the same river twice, he is wrong because when he bathed for the second time the river was not the same as it was when he bathed for the first time. On seeing the brightness of a flame, a man says that he sees the same flame, but this flame is changing every moment. The waking state is like this. The stationary appearance is an error of perception.
Q: Whose is the error?
A: Pramata (the knower).
Q: How did the knower come?
A: On account of the error of perception. In fact, the
knower and his misperceptions appear simultaneously, and when knowledge of the Self is obtained, they disappear simultaneously.
Page 143
Q: From where did the knower and his misperceptions
come?
A: Who is asking this question?
Q: I.
A: Find out that `I' and all your doubts will be solved. Just
as in a dream, a false knower, knowledge and known rise up, in the waking state, the same process operates. In both states, on knowing this `I', you know everything, and nothing remains to be known. In deep sleep, knower, knowledge and known are absent; in the same way, at the time of experiencing the true `I', they will not exist. Whatever you see happening in the waking state happens only to the knower, and since the knower is unreal, nothing in fact ever happens.
Q: After waking from sleep, why does the world of the
previous day appear the same?
A: The world seen on the previous day was not real. It was
the knowledge of an unreal knower; similarly, the world of the next day is also the knowledge of an unreal knower. Truly, there is no real world. What appears separate from us is called by us "the world". It appears separate to us due to ego-consciousness (ahamkara). When ahamkara goes there is nothing separate and then there is no world. Time also arises from pramata (the knower). Because pramata is not real, time is also not real. Prof. Einstein has also stated this in his theory of relativity.
Q: How then do the affairs of daily life go on?
A: At present the government has changed the time by
putting it an hour in advance. Though the time is wrong, daily life still continues.
Q: In Panchadasi there is an example that if you wish to
hear the music of your son who is singing along with all the boys attending the same school, you have to ask the other boys to be quiet. Similarly, to hear the voice of the Self, you have to stop all other activities.
Page 144
A: In this particular example, even if your son is not present,
you will hear the music of the other boys, so the analogy does not fit well. Truly speaking, if there is no Self, no other work can be done. According to another example, if we fix our attention on the main tune of the harmonium, then there will be no difficulty in listening to that tune, even if many other tunes were going on along with it.
Q: Just as a mirage, though believed to be unreal,
appears again, similarly, though the world is believed to be unreal,it reappears.
A: Just as the knowledge of water in the mirage is not true,
similarly, the knowledge of the world in Brahman [?] is not true. All is one Brahma rupa (form of Brahman [?]). That alone is true knowledge.
Q: According to the old system of Vedanta, it is seen that
ignorance arises first, and then arises the idea of individual existence, but according to the new system, there seems to be nothing before or after. The idea of individual existence, ignorance and the world arise simultaneously, and on attaining knowledge, all these three disappear.
A: It is true. "See the world as consisting of Brahman [?],
after making your vision jnanamaya" (consisting of knowledge) (vide., Yoga Vasishta).
Q: Such a state can only be obtained by sat sang (association
with holy men).
A: Do not think that sat sang means only talks and
conversations. It means abidance in being as the form of the Self.
Q: What is the meaning of `atma is swayam prakasa' (The
Self shines by its own light)?
A: Just as the sun has never seen darkness, similarly, the
Self has never seen ignorance. The Self is unknowable, but it can be experienced by aparoksha anubhava (knowledge of the Self by direct perception). This is called swayam prakasatwa (Self-illumination).
Page 145
I I
SWAMI MADHAVATHIRTHA: In the Vedanta [?] of Sri Sankaracharya, the principle of the creation of the world has been accepted for the sake of beginners, but for the advanced, the principle of non-creation is put forward. What is your view in this matter?
Maharshi: "There is no dissolution or creation, no one
in bondage, nor anyone pursuing spiritual practices. There is no one desiring liberation nor anyone liberated. This is the Absolute Truth."
This sloka appears in the second chapter (the chapter on
falsity) of Gaudapada's Karika (a commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad). It means that really there is no dissolution and no creation. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self, sees this by his knowledge of Reality.
S.M: Is not surrender the chief sadhana? M: The sadhana [?] of surrender is accepted, no doubt. But
when surrender is complete, there will be no distinction. Often, when a disciple gets initiation into a mantra from a Guru and believes that he has surrendered, his surrender is not real. In surrender, one has to give up one's mind, and after the mind is given away, there will be no duality of any kind. He who remains separate from God has not surrendered.
S.M: If all actions and their results are surrendered to God,
will the mind be controlled or not?
M: By doing so, the heart will be purified but the mind
will not die. Suppose a drunkard thinks that he has surrendered his karma [?] and its fruits to God, and in his drunken state, if he commits a mistake and someone beats him with a stick for that mistake, he must surrender this
Page 146
beating also to God. But no one acts like that. His state changes at the time he gets the beating. Thus by surrender, the mind is not completely destroyed.
S.M: It is believed that if we surrender to Guru or God,
then the reality of the individual goes away, and in exchange we get the support of a bigger Reality and Divine power shines in us.
M: To expect to receive a bigger Divine power after
surrendering is not the true attitude of surrender.
S.M: It is believed by some that the human body is not the
last on this earth. Establishment in the Self is not perfectly attained, and Self Knowledge is not imbibed naturally in a human body; therefore vijnanamaya sarira (literally the body made of pure knowledge) in which Self-Knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.1
M: Self-Knowledge can shine very well in the human body,
and so there is no need of any other body.
S.M: It is believed that the vijnanamaya sarira will not be
attacked by disease, will not grow old, and will not die without one's desire.
M: The body itself is a disease. To wish for a long stay of
that disease is not the aim of a jnani [?]. Anyhow, one has to give up identification with the body. Just as "I-am-the-body consciousness" prevents one from attaining Self-Knowledge, in the same way, one who has got the conviction that he is not the body will become liberated even without his desire.
S.M: What about bringing down God's power in the
human body?
M: If after surrendering, one still has a desire, then
surrender has not been successful. If one has the attitude, "If
Page 147
the higher power is to come down, it must come in my body." This will only increase identification with the body. Truly speaking, there is no need of any such descent. After the destruction of the "I-am-the-body " idea, the individual becomes the form of the Absolute. In that state, there is no above or below, front or back.
S.M: If the individual becomes the form of the Absolute,
then who will enjoy the bliss of the Absolute? To enjoy the bliss of the Absolute, we must be slightly separate from it, like the bee which tastes honey from a little distance.
M: The bliss of the Absolute is the bliss of one's own nature.
It is not born or created from anything else. Pleasure which is created is sure to be destroyed. Sugar being insentient cannot give it's own taste; the bee has to keep a little distance to taste it. But the Absolute is Awareness and Consciousness. It can give it's own bliss, but it's nature cannot be understood without attaining that state.
S.M: What about bringing a new Divine race on this earth?
M: Whatever is to be in the future is to be understood as
impermanent. Learn to understand properly what you have now so that there will be no need of thinking about the future.
Page 148
These conversations were originally printed in the
author's Gujarati book, Ramana Maharshi ? Introduction and Teaching.
SWAMI Madhava Thirtha: It is said by some that God has
created various kinds of worlds and is still going to create a
new world.
Sri Bhagavan: Our present world itself is not true. Each
one sees a different imaginary world according to his imagination, and so where is the guarantee that the new world will be real? The jiva [?] (individual soul), the world and God, all of these are dependent on the True State. As long as there is the individual sense of `I', these are also there. From this individual sense of `I', from the mind, these three have arisen. If you destroy the mind, the three will not remain, but Brahman [?] alone will remain, as it remains and abides even now.
We see something incorrectly. This misperception will be
rectified by enquiring into the real nature of this jiva [?]. Even if the jiva [?] enters super-mind, it will remain in mind; but after surrendering the mind, there will be nothing remaining but Brahman [?]. Whether this world is real or unreal, chetana or jada,
Page 140
(conscious or inert), a place of happiness or a place of misery, all these states arise in the state of ignorance. They are not useful after Realisation. The state of Atma Nishta (being fixed in the Self ), devoid of the individual feeling of `I', is the Supreme State. In this state, there is no room for objective thinking, nor for this feeling of individual being. There is no doubt of any kind in this natural state of Being-Consciousness-Bliss. So long as there is the perception of name and form in oneself, God will appear with form, but when the vision of the formless Reality (arupa drishti) is achieved there will be no modifications of seer, seeing and seen. That vision is the nature of consciousness itself, non-dual and undivided. It is limitless, infinite and perfect. When the individual sense of `I' arises in the body, then the waking state appears. If this sense is absent, who then will see the world?
Q: It is believed by some that just as we can subdue the
material nature residing in our body, the sage, in the same way, must have such power in himself that he can change other's material nature, because the Self is common to all.
A: The jnani [?] does not believe that there are others, and so
there is no question of changing anyone's material nature. When others are seen, that is ignorance.
Q: Though Janaka was a jnani [?], he was a ruling monarch,
but his Guru, Yajnavalkya, who was also a jnani [?] renounced the world and went to the forest. Why was this so?
A: All happens according to the prarabdha (destiny) of
each jnani [?]. Krishna was an enjoyer of pleasures (bhogi), whereas Sukadeva was an ascetic (tyagi). Janaka and Rama were kings, but all of them were jnanis. Their inner experience was the same, and their external life was in accordance with their prarabdha.
Q: Some see a serpent in the rope, some a stick, some a
garland, and some a flow of water, but the one who sees the
Page 141
rope as the rope has the true knowledge. The knowledge of the other seers is not true.
A: It is not necessary to think of the view of other seers.
Those others are only in your imagination. Know the one seer, and all will be well.
Q: How?
A: In a dream, many are seen, but they are all in the
imagination of the one seer. When you wake up from the dream, the dream and those seen in the dream will take care of their own prarabdha.
Q: Then there will be no others?
A: It is the same with the world. In Aparokshanubhuti, (an
Advaitic work attributed to Sankara), the author says: "In the state where there is no existence of seer, seeing and seen, the sight should be fixed there (in that state) and not on the tip of the nose."
Q: A question arises from this: How can daily life go on if
the sight is fixed in this way?
A: Jnanis fix their sight in the substratum (adhishtana) even
during vyavahara (wordly activities), because nothing else becomes the truth except adhishtana. To feel that there is earth in the pot is the proper attitude (i.e., see the essence and not the form).
Q: A pot can be filled with water, but one cannot achieve
the same result by pouring water on earth.
A: I do not tell you to see earth after breaking the pot.
Even when the pot is whole, you can see it in the form of earth. In the same way, the world can be seen as the form of Brahman [?]. To have the knowledge of Brahman [?] in the waking state is similar to having the knowledge of clay in the pot.
Q: Are the name and form real?
A: You won't find them separate from adhishtana (the
substratum). When you try to get at name and form, you will
Page 142
find Reality only. Therefore attain the knowledge of that which is real for all time.
Q: Is it a fact that dreams arise because of the impressions
received during the waking state?
A: No, it is not true. In your dream you see many new
things and many new people whom you have never seen before in your waking state. You may even see a second dream within the dream. After waking up from the second dream, you feel that you have woken up, but that is the waking state of the first dream. In the same way, man wakes up daily, but it is not to a real waking state.
Q: Why does the waking state look so real?
A: We see so much on the cinema screen, but it is not real;
nothing is real there except the screen. In the same way, in the waking state, there is nothing but adhishtana. Jagrat-prama (knowledge of the world) is the prama of jagrat-pramata. (Knowledge of the knower of the world). Both go away in sleep.
Q: Why do we see such permanency and constancy in the
world?
A: It is seen on account of wrong ideas. When someone
says that he took a bath in the same river twice, he is wrong because when he bathed for the second time the river was not the same as it was when he bathed for the first time. On seeing the brightness of a flame, a man says that he sees the same flame, but this flame is changing every moment. The waking state is like this. The stationary appearance is an error of perception.
Q: Whose is the error?
A: Pramata (the knower).
Q: How did the knower come?
A: On account of the error of perception. In fact, the
knower and his misperceptions appear simultaneously, and when knowledge of the Self is obtained, they disappear simultaneously.
Page 143
Q: From where did the knower and his misperceptions
come?
A: Who is asking this question?
Q: I.
A: Find out that `I' and all your doubts will be solved. Just
as in a dream, a false knower, knowledge and known rise up, in the waking state, the same process operates. In both states, on knowing this `I', you know everything, and nothing remains to be known. In deep sleep, knower, knowledge and known are absent; in the same way, at the time of experiencing the true `I', they will not exist. Whatever you see happening in the waking state happens only to the knower, and since the knower is unreal, nothing in fact ever happens.
Q: After waking from sleep, why does the world of the
previous day appear the same?
A: The world seen on the previous day was not real. It was
the knowledge of an unreal knower; similarly, the world of the next day is also the knowledge of an unreal knower. Truly, there is no real world. What appears separate from us is called by us "the world". It appears separate to us due to ego-consciousness (ahamkara). When ahamkara goes there is nothing separate and then there is no world. Time also arises from pramata (the knower). Because pramata is not real, time is also not real. Prof. Einstein has also stated this in his theory of relativity.
Q: How then do the affairs of daily life go on?
A: At present the government has changed the time by
putting it an hour in advance. Though the time is wrong, daily life still continues.
Q: In Panchadasi there is an example that if you wish to
hear the music of your son who is singing along with all the boys attending the same school, you have to ask the other boys to be quiet. Similarly, to hear the voice of the Self, you have to stop all other activities.
Page 144
A: In this particular example, even if your son is not present,
you will hear the music of the other boys, so the analogy does not fit well. Truly speaking, if there is no Self, no other work can be done. According to another example, if we fix our attention on the main tune of the harmonium, then there will be no difficulty in listening to that tune, even if many other tunes were going on along with it.
Q: Just as a mirage, though believed to be unreal,
appears again, similarly, though the world is believed to be unreal,it reappears.
A: Just as the knowledge of water in the mirage is not true,
similarly, the knowledge of the world in Brahman [?] is not true. All is one Brahma rupa (form of Brahman [?]). That alone is true knowledge.
Q: According to the old system of Vedanta, it is seen that
ignorance arises first, and then arises the idea of individual existence, but according to the new system, there seems to be nothing before or after. The idea of individual existence, ignorance and the world arise simultaneously, and on attaining knowledge, all these three disappear.
A: It is true. "See the world as consisting of Brahman [?],
after making your vision jnanamaya" (consisting of knowledge) (vide., Yoga Vasishta).
Q: Such a state can only be obtained by sat sang (association
with holy men).
A: Do not think that sat sang means only talks and
conversations. It means abidance in being as the form of the Self.
Q: What is the meaning of `atma is swayam prakasa' (The
Self shines by its own light)?
A: Just as the sun has never seen darkness, similarly, the
Self has never seen ignorance. The Self is unknowable, but it can be experienced by aparoksha anubhava (knowledge of the Self by direct perception). This is called swayam prakasatwa (Self-illumination).
Page 145
I I
SWAMI MADHAVATHIRTHA: In the Vedanta [?] of Sri Sankaracharya, the principle of the creation of the world has been accepted for the sake of beginners, but for the advanced, the principle of non-creation is put forward. What is your view in this matter?
Maharshi: "There is no dissolution or creation, no one
in bondage, nor anyone pursuing spiritual practices. There is no one desiring liberation nor anyone liberated. This is the Absolute Truth."
This sloka appears in the second chapter (the chapter on
falsity) of Gaudapada's Karika (a commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad). It means that really there is no dissolution and no creation. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self, sees this by his knowledge of Reality.
S.M: Is not surrender the chief sadhana? M: The sadhana [?] of surrender is accepted, no doubt. But
when surrender is complete, there will be no distinction. Often, when a disciple gets initiation into a mantra from a Guru and believes that he has surrendered, his surrender is not real. In surrender, one has to give up one's mind, and after the mind is given away, there will be no duality of any kind. He who remains separate from God has not surrendered.
S.M: If all actions and their results are surrendered to God,
will the mind be controlled or not?
M: By doing so, the heart will be purified but the mind
will not die. Suppose a drunkard thinks that he has surrendered his karma [?] and its fruits to God, and in his drunken state, if he commits a mistake and someone beats him with a stick for that mistake, he must surrender this
Page 146
beating also to God. But no one acts like that. His state changes at the time he gets the beating. Thus by surrender, the mind is not completely destroyed.
S.M: It is believed that if we surrender to Guru or God,
then the reality of the individual goes away, and in exchange we get the support of a bigger Reality and Divine power shines in us.
M: To expect to receive a bigger Divine power after
surrendering is not the true attitude of surrender.
S.M: It is believed by some that the human body is not the
last on this earth. Establishment in the Self is not perfectly attained, and Self Knowledge is not imbibed naturally in a human body; therefore vijnanamaya sarira (literally the body made of pure knowledge) in which Self-Knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.1
M: Self-Knowledge can shine very well in the human body,
and so there is no need of any other body.
S.M: It is believed that the vijnanamaya sarira will not be
attacked by disease, will not grow old, and will not die without one's desire.
M: The body itself is a disease. To wish for a long stay of
that disease is not the aim of a jnani [?]. Anyhow, one has to give up identification with the body. Just as "I-am-the-body consciousness" prevents one from attaining Self-Knowledge, in the same way, one who has got the conviction that he is not the body will become liberated even without his desire.
S.M: What about bringing down God's power in the
human body?
M: If after surrendering, one still has a desire, then
surrender has not been successful. If one has the attitude, "If
Page 147
the higher power is to come down, it must come in my body." This will only increase identification with the body. Truly speaking, there is no need of any such descent. After the destruction of the "I-am-the-body " idea, the individual becomes the form of the Absolute. In that state, there is no above or below, front or back.
S.M: If the individual becomes the form of the Absolute,
then who will enjoy the bliss of the Absolute? To enjoy the bliss of the Absolute, we must be slightly separate from it, like the bee which tastes honey from a little distance.
M: The bliss of the Absolute is the bliss of one's own nature.
It is not born or created from anything else. Pleasure which is created is sure to be destroyed. Sugar being insentient cannot give it's own taste; the bee has to keep a little distance to taste it. But the Absolute is Awareness and Consciousness. It can give it's own bliss, but it's nature cannot be understood without attaining that state.
S.M: What about bringing a new Divine race on this earth?
M: Whatever is to be in the future is to be understood as
impermanent. Learn to understand properly what you have now so that there will be no need of thinking about the future.
Page 148
SWAMI MADHAVATHIRTHA: In the Vedanta [?] of Sri Sankaracharya, the principle of the creation of the world has been accepted for the sake of beginners, but for the advanced, the principle of non-creation is put forward. What is your view in this matter?
Maharshi: "There is no dissolution or creation, no one
in bondage, nor anyone pursuing spiritual practices. There is no one desiring liberation nor anyone liberated. This is the Absolute Truth."
This sloka appears in the second chapter (the chapter on
falsity) of Gaudapada's Karika (a commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad). It means that really there is no dissolution and no creation. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self, sees this by his knowledge of Reality.
S.M: Is not surrender the chief sadhana? M: The sadhana [?] of surrender is accepted, no doubt. But
when surrender is complete, there will be no distinction. Often, when a disciple gets initiation into a mantra from a Guru and believes that he has surrendered, his surrender is not real. In surrender, one has to give up one's mind, and after the mind is given away, there will be no duality of any kind. He who remains separate from God has not surrendered.
S.M: If all actions and their results are surrendered to God,
will the mind be controlled or not?
M: By doing so, the heart will be purified but the mind
will not die. Suppose a drunkard thinks that he has surrendered his karma [?] and its fruits to God, and in his drunken state, if he commits a mistake and someone beats him with a stick for that mistake, he must surrender this
Page 146
beating also to God. But no one acts like that. His state changes at the time he gets the beating. Thus by surrender, the mind is not completely destroyed.
S.M: It is believed that if we surrender to Guru or God,
then the reality of the individual goes away, and in exchange we get the support of a bigger Reality and Divine power shines in us.
M: To expect to receive a bigger Divine power after
surrendering is not the true attitude of surrender.
S.M: It is believed by some that the human body is not the
last on this earth. Establishment in the Self is not perfectly attained, and Self Knowledge is not imbibed naturally in a human body; therefore vijnanamaya sarira (literally the body made of pure knowledge) in which Self-Knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.1
M: Self-Knowledge can shine very well in the human body,
and so there is no need of any other body.
S.M: It is believed that the vijnanamaya sarira will not be
attacked by disease, will not grow old, and will not die without one's desire.
M: The body itself is a disease. To wish for a long stay of
that disease is not the aim of a jnani [?]. Anyhow, one has to give up identification with the body. Just as "I-am-the-body consciousness" prevents one from attaining Self-Knowledge, in the same way, one who has got the conviction that he is not the body will become liberated even without his desire.
S.M: What about bringing down God's power in the
human body?
M: If after surrendering, one still has a desire, then
surrender has not been successful. If one has the attitude, "If
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the higher power is to come down, it must come in my body." This will only increase identification with the body. Truly speaking, there is no need of any such descent. After the destruction of the "I-am-the-body " idea, the individual becomes the form of the Absolute. In that state, there is no above or below, front or back.
S.M: If the individual becomes the form of the Absolute,
then who will enjoy the bliss of the Absolute? To enjoy the bliss of the Absolute, we must be slightly separate from it, like the bee which tastes honey from a little distance.
M: The bliss of the Absolute is the bliss of one's own nature.
It is not born or created from anything else. Pleasure which is created is sure to be destroyed. Sugar being insentient cannot give it's own taste; the bee has to keep a little distance to taste it. But the Absolute is Awareness and Consciousness. It can give it's own bliss, but it's nature cannot be understood without attaining that state.
S.M: What about bringing a new Divine race on this earth?
M: Whatever is to be in the future is to be understood as
impermanent. Learn to understand properly what you have now so that there will be no need of thinking about the future.
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