22nd January, 1937

Talk 336.

A certain Vaisya who seems to have studied the Upanishads and Srimad Bhagavad Gita asked some questions:
D.: How to realise the Self?
M.: The Self is always directly perceived. There is no moment when it is not so. How then is it to be ascertained? Find out the Self. You are that.

D.: But it is said the heart-knots are cut away and all doubts end when the Supreme is found. The word drishti ^[?] is used.

M.: To be the Self is the same as seeing the Self. There are no two selves for the one to see the other. Later, he continued the same question of investigation of the Self.

D.: How to realise the Self?
M.: It is already realised. One should know this simple fact. That is all.
D.: But I do not know it. How shall I know it?
M.: Do you deny your existence?
D.: No: how can that be done?

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M.: Then the truth is admitted.
D.: Yet, I do not see. How shall I realise the Self?
M.: Find out who says `I'.
D.: Yes. I say `I'.
M.: Who is this `I'? Is it the body or some one besides the body?
D.: It is not the body. It is someone besides it
M.: Find it out.
D.: I am unable to do it. How shall I find it?
M.: You are now aware of the body. You were not aware of the body in deep sleep. Still you remained in sleep. After waking up you hold the body and say "I cannot realise the Self". Did you say so in your sleep? Because you were undivided (akhanda) then, you did not say so. Now that you are contracted within the limits of the body you say "I have not realised". Why do you limit your Self and then feel miserable? Be of your true nature and happy. You did not say `I' in sleep. You say so now. Why? Because you hold to the body. Find out wherefrom this `I' comes. Then the Self is realised. The body being insentient cannot say `I'. The Self being infinite cannot say `I' either. Who then says `I'?

D.: I do not yet understand. How to find the `I'?
M.: Find out where from this `I' arises. Then this `I' will disappear and the infinite Self will remain. This `I' is only the knot between the sentient and the insentient. The body is not `I', the Self is not `I'. Who, then, is the `I'? Wherefrom does it arise?

D.: Where from does it arise?
M.: Find out.
D.: I do not know. Please enlighten me.
M.: It is not from without. It is from within. Where does it come from? If elsewhere you can be led there. Being within, you must find it out yourself.

D.: From the head?
M.: Does the concept of `head' arise after the `I' or does `I' arise from the head? If `I' be in the head why do you bend it when sleep
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overpowers you? `I' is ever constant. So also must its seat be. If the head bends at one time and is erect at another time how can it be the seat of `I'? Your head is laid flat in sleep. When awake it is raised up. Can it be the `I'?

D.: Which is it then?
M.: `I' comes from within. When asleep there is no `I'. Just before waking there is `I-thought'.

D.: The heart-knot is said to be between the eyebrows.
M.: Some say "between the eyebrows"; others "at the coccyx", and so on. All these are from the standpoint of the body.

The body comes after the `I-thought'.
D.: But I cannot divest myself of the body.
M.: So you admit that you are not the body.
D.: If there is pain in this body, I feel it; but not if another body is injured. I cannot get over this body.

M.: This identity is the cause of such feeling. That is the hrdaya

granthi ^[?] (heart-knot).

D.: How is this knot to go?
M.: For whom is the knot? Why do you want it to go? Does it ask or do you ask?

D.: It cannot ask; I am asking.
M.: Who is that `I'? If that is found the knot will not remain.
D.: The knot is concomitant with the body. The body is due to birth.

How is rebirth to cease?

M.: Who is born? Is the Self born? Or is it the body?
D.: It is the body.
M.: Then let the body ask how its rebirth may cease.
D.: It will not ask. So I am asking.
M.: Whose is the body? You were without it in your deep sleep. After the `I-thought' arose the body arose. The first birth is that of `I- thought'. The body has its birth subsequent to `I-thought'. So its birth is secondary. Get rid of the primary cause and the secondary one will disappear by itself.

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D.: How is that `I-thought' to be checked from rising?
M.: By Self-quest.
D.: I try to understand but without success. Can I find the Self by means of japa ^[?]? If so, please tell me how.

M.: What japa? Why should you make artificial Japa ^[?]? You can find out the eternal and natural japa always going on within you.

D.: Some upadesh will probably help me.
M.: If I say "Do - Rama, Rama" to one who has not struggled through books like you, he will do it and stick to it. If I say so to one like you who have read much and are investigating matters, you will not do it for long, because you will think, "Why should I do it? Above all, who am I that should be repeating the mantra ^[?]? Let me find who I am before I proceed further"; and so you will stop japa and begin investigation.

D.: It is said: The senses are out-going (paranchikhani); inward turned (is) sight (avrittachakshuh). What is avrittachakshuh (inward-turned sight)?

M.: It does not mean replacement of the eyeball in the opposite direction. What is chakshuh?

D.: The eye.
M.: Does the eye see or is it someone behind the eye that sees? If the eye could see, then does a corpse see? The one who is behind the eye sees through the eye. He is meant by the word chakshuh.

D.: Divya chakshuh is necessary to see the glory of God. This physical eye is the ordinary chakshuh.

M.: Oh! I see. You want to see million-sun-splendour and the rest of it!

D.: Can we not see the glory as million-sun-splendour?
M.: Can you see the single sun? Why do you ask for millions of suns?
D.: It must be possible to do so by divine sight. "Where the sun shines not, etc. That is My Supreme abode". Therefore there is a state where this sun is powerless. That state is that of God.

M.: All right. Find Krishna and the problem is solved.
D.: Krishna is not alive.

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M.: Is that what you have learnt from the Gita? Does He not say that He is eternal? Of what are you thinking, His body?

D.: He taught others while alive. Those around Him must have realised. I seek a similar living Guru.

M.: Is Gita then useless after He withdrew His body? Did He speak of His body as Krishna? Natwewaham jatu nasam … (Never I was not….)
D.: But I want a living Guru who can say the truth first hand.
M.: The fate of the Guru will be similar to the fate of Krishna.

The questioner retired. Later, Sri Bhagavan said: Divine sight means Self-luminosity. The world divya shows it. The full word means the Self. Who is to bestow a divine eye? And who is to see? Again, people read in the books, "hearing, reflection and one-pointedness are necessary". They think that they must pass through savikalpa

samadhi and nirvikalpa samadhi before attaining Realisation. Hence all these questions. Why should they wander in that maze? What do they gain at the end? It is only cessation of the trouble of seeking. They find that the Self is eternal and self-evident. Why should they not get that repose even this moment? A simple man, not learned, is satisfied with japa or worship. A Jnani ^[?] is of course satisfied. The whole trouble is for the book-worms. Well, well. They will also get on.