Talk 644.
A District Official, a Muslim: What is the necessity for reincarnation?M.: Let us first see if there is incarnation before we speak of reincarnation.
D.: How?
M.: Are you now incarnated that you speak of reincarnation?
D.: Yes. Certainly. An amoeba developed into higher organisms until the human being has been evolved. This is now the perfection in development. Why should there be further reincarnation?
M.: Who is to set limits to this theory of evolution?
D.: Physically it is perfect. But for the soul, further development may be required which will happen after the death of the man.
M.: Who is the man? Is he the body or the soul?
D.: Both put together.
M.: Do you not exist in the absence of the body?
D.: How do you mean? It is impossible.
M.: What was your state in deep sleep?
D.: Sleep is temporary death. I was unconscious and therefore I cannot say what the state was.
M.: But you existed in sleep. Did you not?
D.: In sleep the soul leaves the body and goes out somewhere. Then it returns to the body before waking. It is therefore temporary death.
M.: A man who is dead never returns to say that he died, whereas the man who had slept says that he slept.
D.: Because this is temporary death.
M.: If death is temporary and life is temporary, what is it that is real?
D.: What is meant by the question?
M.: If life and death be temporary, there must be something which is not temporary. Reality is that which is not temporary.
D.: There is nothing real. Everything is temporary. Everything is maya [?].
M.: On what does maya appear?
D.: Now I see you; it is all maya.
M.: If everything is maya, how does any question arise?
D.: Why should there be reincarnation?
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M.: For whom?
D.: For the perfect human being.
M.: If you are perfect, why do you fear to be reborn? It indicates imperfection.
D.: Not that I fear. But you say that I must be reborn.
M.: Who says it? You are asking the question.
D.: What I mean is this. You are a Perfect Being; I am a sinner. You tell me that I being a sinner must be reborn in order to perfect myself?
M.: No, I do not say so. On the other hand I say that you have no birth and therefore no death.
D.: Do you mean to say that I was not born?
M.: Yes, you are now thinking that you are the body and therefore confuse yourself with its birth and death. But you are not the body and you have no birth and death.
D.: Do you not uphold the theory of rebirth?
M.: No. On the other hand, I want to remove your confusion that you will be reborn. It is you who think that you will be reborn. See for whom this question arises. Unless the questioner is found, the questions can never be set at rest.
D.: This is no answer to my question.
M.: On the other hand, this is the answer to elucidate the point and all other doubts as well.
D.: This will not satisfy all others.
M.: Leave others alone. If you take care of yourself others can take care of themselves. Silence followed. He left in a few minutes apparently dissatisfied with the discourse. Sri Bhagavan said after a few minutes: This will work in him. The discourse will have its effect. He does not admit any Reality. Well - who is it that has determined everything to be unreal? Otherwise the determination also becomes unreal. The theory of evolution is enlarged upon by the person in this state. Where is it, if not in his mind?
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To say that the soul must be perfected after death, the soul must be admitted to exist. Therefore the body is not the person. It is the soul. To explain evolution Sri Bhagavan continued: One sees an edifice in his dream. It rises up all of a sudden. Then he begins to think how it should have been already built brick by brick by so many labourers during such a long time. Yet he does not see the builders working. So also with the theory of evolution. Because he finds himself a man he thinks that he has developed to that stage from the primal state of the amoeba.
Another devotee: It is an illustration of the saying that he sees the universe full of cause and effect Visram pasyati karyakaranataya.
M.:Yes. The man always traces an effect to a cause, there must be a cause for the cause, the argument becomes interminable. Relating the effect to a cause makes the man think. He is finally driven to consider who he is himself. When he knows the Self there is Perfect Peace. It is for that consummation that man is evolved.
Later in the evening, another devotee said to Sri Bhagavan that the Muslim official continued to speak of the same topic to the Municipal Commissioner. Then Sri Bhagavan said: He says that body and soul together form the man. But I ask what is the state of the man in deep sleep. The body is not aware whereas the man is there all along.
D.: But he says that sleep is temporary death.
M.: Yes, so he says. But he qualifies the word death by the word temporary, so that the man returns to the body. How does he find the body to re-enter it? Moreover, he is sure to return. That means that he must exist to return to the body or to claim the body for himself. The scriptures however say that the prana [?]protects the body in sleep. For when the body lies on the floor, a wolf or a tiger may feed on it. The animal sniffs and feels that there is life within and therefore does not feed on it as on a corpse. That again shows that there is someone in the body to protect it in deep sleep.
General remarks by Sri Bhagavan:
All knowledge is meant only to lead the person to the realisation of the Self. The scriptures or religions are well-known to be for
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that purpose. What do they all mean? Leave alone what they say of the past or of the future; for it is only speculative. But the present existence is within the experience of all. Realise the pure Being. There is an end to all discourses and disputes. But the intellect of man does not easily take to this course. It is only rarely that a man becomes introverted. The intellect delights in investigating the past and the future but does not look to the present.
D.: Because it must lose itself if it sank within in search of the Self.
But the other investigation gives it not only a lease of life but also food for growth.
M.: Yes. Quite so. Why is intellect developed? It has a purpose. The purpose is that it should show the way to realise the Self. It must be put to that use.